 Flashermac
Curmudgeon
Posts: 30898
Loc: Transylvania
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BERKELEY, Calif. - As six Republican senators devised a plan to yank $2.3 million in federal funding for Berkeley programs, the mayor of the famously liberal city apologized Wednesday for his hard stance against a Marine recruiting center.
Two City Council members vowed to soften their stance as well.
At their Tuesday council meeting, leaders will discuss scrapping a letter that might be perceived as targeting the center or the Marines.
The letter said that the recruiting center was not welcome on Shattuck Avenue and that the Marines were uninvited and unwelcome intruders.
"That letter will probably be pulled back and maybe more moderate language will be put in place which is appropriate I think," said Berkeley mayor Tom Bates.
"Subtly stated in the resolution is perhaps an impugning of the soldiers fighting for us in Iraq and other places," Berkeley City Councilman Laurie Capitelli. "And that was never the intention but that really needs to be cleared up. As I walked to my car that night I realized I regretted it and I had made a mistake."
Bates said the city didn't mean to offend anyone in the armed forces and the focus should have been on the war not the troops.
"There's really no correlation between federal funds for schools, water ferries and police communications systems and the council's actions, for God's sake," said Bates, a retired U.S. Army captain. "We apologize for any offense to any families of anyone who may serve in Iraq. We want them to come home and be safe at home."
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A happy childhood... is the worst possible preparation for life. - Kinky Friedman
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chocolat steve
old hand
Posts: 9386
Loc: Los Angeles / Pattaya
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In response to Flashermac - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
The city went too far in my opinion. Make a city resolution against the war or whatever, but its counter to what Berkeley is suppposed to be to ban a group because it disagrees with it. Some people are only open to groups they believe in and this country was partially founded on the freedom of unpopular groups not to be oppressed by the majority or the people in power. Ban Tottenham or Man Yoo if it feels the need to ban something evil.
| "...you ever see me with a white woman, I'm just holding her till the police come..." - Redd Foxx |
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cavanami
I've outlived my dick!
Posts: 9255
Loc: BKK
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In response to chocolat steve - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Typical as to what we see happening to these "freedom" groups...after a while it becomes, ...if you don't follow along with our idea, then you are cast out (or whatever)...the freedom is replaced by a mandatory "do it our way or else"!
Pam (Jim's GF): "Do you actually put your dick in her?"
Jim Morrison (The Doors): "Well, yes, sometimes..." |
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chocolat steve
old hand
Posts: 9386
Loc: Los Angeles / Pattaya
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In response to cavanami - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Most political science classes say that ideology isn't a line but a circle and that the far left and the far right end up meeting each other.
| "...you ever see me with a white woman, I'm just holding her till the police come..." - Redd Foxx |
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NanaHunter
enthusiast
Posts: 210
Loc: MarriottBuri
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In response to chocolat steve - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
those sorry aresed Berzerkly morons who embraced the Berkeley Bard as the offical paper in that town. Look I attended that University in the early 70's and got gassed going to class because on of the main halls for my progams was Barrows and that is right behind Sprowl and the famous Plaza for all the people who did attend school there but came to disrupt those of us seeking high education! Berzerkeleyites are nuts good buy Berzekeley!
Long Life to
H.E. Pol LCol Dr. Thaksin S. |
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The_Munchmaster
Sage
Posts: 8833
Loc: Fecking Dubai!!!
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In response to NanaHunter - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
....Berzerkeleyites are nuts good buy Berzekeley!
Which probably explains why you are nuts. 
| "Looking at cleavage is like looking at the sun. You don't stare at it. It's too risky. You get a sense of it and then you look away." |
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rogueyam
stranger
Posts: 2739
Loc: San Francisco, USA
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In response to NanaHunter - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Things aren't so simple for Berkeley these days. A lot of folks are not going to just stand by and allow the hippies to disrespect and interfere with the Marines with impunity. The Berkeley City Council will be revisiting this issue at their meeting next Tuesday, Feb. 12. There will be a range of voices heard on the subject then. It will likely be an enthusiastic and colorful event, to say the least.
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Hugh_Hoy
Monger
Posts: 4219
Loc: Here, Today; Gone Tomorr...
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In response to rogueyam - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
I saw a clip on the news of the protesters. 5555555555 Mostly a 60-year-old + group of gray-hairs reliving their hippy days as Viet Nam War protesters. I guess some people never get a life...even after all these years.
HH
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rogueyam
stranger
Posts: 2739
Loc: San Francisco, USA
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In response to Hugh_Hoy - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Here's a report from about a week ago (with photos and links) done by San Francisco's famous chronicler of Bay Area goofiness, "zombie":
http://www.zombietime.com/berkeley_marine_corps _2-...
There are not so many of these far-left crazies about, but there are a few who seek attention and know how to get it.
I think most people around here think these protesters are an embarassment and that it's wrong to slag the Marines, but the President and the war are so unpopular that the freaks are emboldened to take things too far.
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TheCorinthian
Pooh-Bah
Posts: 1900
Loc: Iraq (Sorry)
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In response to rogueyam - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
People in small groups just do not realize how popular Marines are to the vast majority of the country. Add to that that just about 90% of the people born in the USA are related to a service member and you get the picture.
I forget who it was in the US Congress that called Marines "Jack Booted thugs" or something like that in the 1990's, but she lost here seat and had to leave the state over the uproar.
When we heard Berkley was trying this, believe me, we laughed our asses off, sat back, and let nature take its course.
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NanaHunter
enthusiast
Posts: 210
Loc: MarriottBuri
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In response to The_Munchmaster - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
....Berzerkeleyites are nuts good buy Berzekeley!
Which probably explains why you are nuts.
Muchanatopr. I'm on a Berzerkoid..I'm a ative San Franciscan, polotical conservative and I hate fags and commies!
Long Life to
H.E. Pol LCol Dr. Thaksin S. |
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rogueyam
stranger
Posts: 2739
Loc: San Francisco, USA
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In response to TheCorinthian - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
When we heard Berkley was trying this, believe me, we laughed our asses off, sat back, and let nature take its course.
Well, y'all might want to check out the news from here after 2/12. There will almost certainly be some "new developments" as they say.
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Old Hippie
I LOST a friend
Posts: 23969
Loc: SFO/OAK/BKK
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In response to TheCorinthian - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
"...I forget who it was in the US Congress that called Marines "Jack Booted thugs" or something like that in the 1990's, but she lost here seat and had to leave the state over the uproar..."
G. Gordon Liddy Made a comment of that sort regarding the ATF officers who went into Waco Texas, the result was his show was pulled from some markets. I believe he also gave advice on where to aim when shooting an officer wearing a bullet proof vest. Frankly, I kinda like Liddy.
| "....'cause when life looks like easy street, there is danger at your door..." -Hunter/Garcia |
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Flashermac
Curmudgeon
Posts: 30898
Loc: Transylvania
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In response to Old Hippie - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
I used to listen to Liddy on the radio. He's kind of a likable homicidal maniac. 
p.s. I also like Marines a lot. They're good guys, plus they usually get the shittiest assignments, which meant the Army doesn't have to do them.
A happy childhood... is the worst possible preparation for life. - Kinky Friedman
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to Flashermac - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
They sure got a shitty assignment in Iraq...a lot of the natives seem to think they're just stealing oil...
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TheCorinthian
Pooh-Bah
Posts: 1900
Loc: Iraq (Sorry)
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
You know, I used to ask them about that- the locals that is. It was amazing the comments I received but no one ever actually accused us of that. Though a lot thought the oil was in the long term plan. Most were more worried about the Kurds and the Iranians getting the oil than us doing it.
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to TheCorinthian - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
no one ever actually accused us of that.
Yes that is amazing. One would expect occupied people to be really up front about how they feel.
I expect the only people who want you to leave are a few Al Quaida deadenders?
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ALHOLK
Carpal \'Tunnel
Posts: 3829
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
a lot of the natives seem to think they're just stealing oil...
Which is precisely what they are doing.
| I think that I think - Therefore I think that I am. |
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ALHOLK
Carpal \'Tunnel
Posts: 3829
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In response to TheCorinthian - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Do you really think that the Iraqis are so dumb that they would say anything negative in face of an armed yank. They would most likely be killed instantaneously.
| I think that I think - Therefore I think that I am. |
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lazyphil
Carpal Tunnel
Posts: 13089
Loc: Cromwell Country
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
all oil is stolen from mother nature. look at the damage done by oil, the intrusvive pipelines, tanker spills, upsetting the natural envioment, pollution, etc etc, 'stealing' oil from the 'natives' is just another notch of the negatives of the greed to fuel mankinds hedonistic lifestyle. however, look at the positives of it all, american jumbo jet travel, A/C hotels you know stuff like that. that said its perfectly reasonable to question american ethics/foreign policy but does that stop anyone using oil derived products not knowing exactly where the oil was sourced. we're all guilty of the relentless supply and demand. the american war machine is simply honoring our insatiable thirst for the stuff!
necessity hath no law.
Speech to parliament, Sept. 1654.
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to lazyphil - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Well at least you're honest phil. I wish Bush and Cheney and the gang were half as honest about it. They want us to believe they're just helping the Iraqis!! 
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lazyphil
Carpal Tunnel
Posts: 13089
Loc: Cromwell Country
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
boycott oil, become a crofter in mull!!...the oil robbed from nigeria just for example where natives see nothing of the huge wealth that it generates for a select few. not just yanks there. we must stop focusing on dimwits like bush and cheney, they are just scapegoats to try and reduce the guilt we ALL should feel for the slow demise of planet earth due to our non stop energy demands.
necessity hath no law.
Speech to parliament, Sept. 1654.
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TheCorinthian
Pooh-Bah
Posts: 1900
Loc: Iraq (Sorry)
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In response to ALHOLK - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Do you really think that the Iraqis are so dumb that they would say anything negative in face of an armed yank. They would most likely be killed instantaneously.
Oh yes they would. They learned very quickly that, unlike Saddam, we would not kill them with out good reason and would even go out of our way not to hurt them.
An example of which is that they would accuse us of all kinds of things like murder, rape, ect, even when it was clear it was Iraq on Iraq junk. Stealing oil, however was just not one of them.
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unit731
enthusiast
Posts: 2738
Loc: Awaiting Sentence
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In response to TheCorinthian - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Thank God for the U.S. Marines!
| "I lived to tell the story, but did not tell the story to live".
Diego Garcia |
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to TheCorinthian - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
An example of which is that they would accuse us of all kinds of things like murder, rape, ect, even when it was clear it was Iraq on Iraq junk.
In other words they're feeding you a line of bullshit. It's an improvement I guess but don't start thinking they love you. I'm prepared to believe you are getting cooperation in Anbar from Sunni tribes. But you must know it will only last as long as you keep pumping money and arms in and keep the Shia militias and the Pershmerga out.
In case you're wondering...I have nothing against US marines. I just don't think you've been sent to Iraq on an honorable mission.
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lazyphil
Carpal Tunnel
Posts: 13089
Loc: Cromwell Country
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
wheres the honor in oil you use that is possibly sourced in nigeria. i'm sorry to sound like a broken record!
necessity hath no law.
Speech to parliament, Sept. 1654.
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to lazyphil - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
So you should be. Nobody invaded Nigeria. Different bunch of crooks. I'm talking about the great Iraq rip-off in which our friend Corinthian is an active participant...though he probably doesn't see it that way.
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Flashermac
Curmudgeon
Posts: 30898
Loc: Transylvania
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Nigeria became a democratic nation, thanks to the Brits bringing them civilisation.
A happy childhood... is the worst possible preparation for life. - Kinky Friedman
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to Flashermac - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
OK I'll bite. The British also taught them to read and write scam letters.
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Flashermac
Curmudgeon
Posts: 30898
Loc: Transylvania
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Don't forget Obama's "Nigerian grannie" ...
A happy childhood... is the worst possible preparation for life. - Kinky Friedman
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lazyphil
Carpal Tunnel
Posts: 13089
Loc: Cromwell Country
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Nobody invaded Nigeria?....i doubt the locals see it that way. oil been shipped away for you and me while they live in squaler.
necessity hath no law.
Speech to parliament, Sept. 1654.
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to lazyphil - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Oh I see what you're getting at. Nigeria was a British colony that became an independent country in 1960. It hasn't been invaded since then. They are free to run their oil business any way they want...very badly most likely.
After being the British Mandate of Mesopotamia Iraq became a sovereign state that got invaded recently on a trumped up pretext because Bushco wanted to.
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shygye
Carpal \'Tunnel
Posts: 10759
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In response to lazyphil - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Nobody invaded Nigeria?....i doubt the locals see it that way. oil been shipped away for you and me while they live in squaler.
So the Nigerians getting rich on oil are not locals? Where did they come from, Ipswich?
| Marriage by misadventure. |
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to shygye - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
It's something to do with all of us needing oil. Phil is trying to make a correlation between the colonization of Africa and the invasion of a sovereign country in 2003. He wants to know why plundering another country's resources used to be OK but isn't OK anymore.
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TheCorinthian
Pooh-Bah
Posts: 1900
Loc: Iraq (Sorry)
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
So you should be. Nobody invaded Nigeria. Different bunch of crooks. I'm talking about the great Iraq rip-off in which our friend Corinthian is an active participant...though he probably doesn't see it that way.
Chuck, you are more than welcome to come here and prove me wrong. But you won't will you?
For one you can't because it is just not true. (And there are people that would pay you millions if you could.) For two you just don't have the balls to come here yourself--> If so the airport code is "SDA."
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shygye
Carpal \'Tunnel
Posts: 10759
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
It's something to do with all of us needing oil. Phil is trying to make a correlation between the colonization of Africa and the invasion of a sovereign country in 2003. He wants to know why plundering another country's resources used to be OK but isn't OK anymore.
Do you know how much petrol costs in the USA? Do you know how much petrol costs in Iraq? Now, who is plundering whom?
| Marriage by misadventure. |
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to TheCorinthian - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
So you don't see invading a sovereign country, deciding who gets oil contracts based on their participation in the invasion and jamming an oil law down the Iraqi people's throats as a rip off? OK. You've obviously convinced yourself.
I don't get the bit about 'people paying me millions'...for what?
I lived and worked in the Basra area for four years when it was possible to walk the streets without needing a bullet proof vest. I'd love to do it again. I'd really like to wander in the date palm groves again and go on picnics by the Euphrates with my Iraqi friends but I'm sure it's impossible. It's not really a question of balls. I'm too old to sit in a hot MRAB even if I could get permission from the current occupiers.
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to shygye - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Do you know how much petrol costs in the USA? Do you know how much petrol costs in Iraq? Now, who is plundering whom?
In the US about $3 a gallon. You'll have to tell me the current price in Iraqi. I guess you also need to factor in transportation and refinery costs and the additional costs because of all the security forces involved. Before the invasion crude was selling for around $20 a barrel. Now it's over $90 a barrel. The invasion was supposed to pay for itself...it would all be over in a few weeks...the Iraqis would throw flowers at the liberators...the insurgency is in its last throes...the surge is working...
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TheCorinthian
Pooh-Bah
Posts: 1900
Loc: Iraq (Sorry)
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
I am saying you are NOT HERE now so you don't know crap about what it is going on. In fact, I bet you know no one that is here that is saying we are stealing oil. Its just not true. (If it were gas in the US would be $0.50 a gal.)
I am saying what I am seeing here right now. Again, grow some balls and put your money where your mouth is and come down here and prove me wrong. It would be worth your while.
You have to talk to the IG about getting here; I can get you there number if you want.
But we knew even before you said you were old that you won't do that.
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TheCorinthian
Pooh-Bah
Posts: 1900
Loc: Iraq (Sorry)
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In response to TheCorinthian - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Her you go Chuck. Give these guys a call.
Tell them you can prove we are stealing oil and they will likely pay your way. All kinds of money to be made off the west and help get us out of the mid east if you can pull it off! (God knows I would not mind leaving myself!)
Republic of Iraq Embassy
47 Pradipat Rd, Samsen Nai, Phayathai, Bkk 10400
Tel: 278 5335-8; Fax: 271 4218
Edited by TheCorinthian on 11-02-08 12:48 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to TheCorinthian - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
I'm not sure why you need to get personal. A trip to Iraq (or anywhere else) is not possible for me at the moment for several reasons. I'm not in great physical condition but also I think I'd be in trouble from day one because of my opinions. If you can get mad at me from a distance how long would I last in the mess hall? Also I don't think it would be possible to travel around without being beholden to the US military. Even during Saddam's time a lot of places were off limits and I imagine it's harder now with checkpoints, barricades etc..The Green Zone might be interesting for a while but not my idea of seeing a country.
True I'm not there but believe me if Bush could get find a way to get the gas price down to 50 cents he'd do it.
Are you seriously trying to tell me oil isn't a major factor in the occupation? Are you telling me it doesn't cost a fortune to guard those pipelines from terrorists? How are ordinary Iraqis benefiting from the revenues?
I'm supposed to phone the Iraqi Embassy in Bangkok and tell them their oil is being stolen? That's just silly. They'd just hang up on me and you know it. Anyway the ambassador is probably getting a cut.
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TheCorinthian
Pooh-Bah
Posts: 1900
Loc: Iraq (Sorry)
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
You use terms like "convinced himself" and I am the one getting personal?
Come on, admit it. You don't know crap about what is going on here but you don't mind posting like you do.
I on the other hand have my boots on the ground so you can either listen to what I have to say or come here and prove me wrong. Making such claims from your air conditioned room with a full frig of food is a fools assignment.
But hell, don't take my word for it. There are literally MILLIONS of people that would LOVE to show we are stealing oil as it would put them in power in the US and Great Britain in about ten minuets. That alone should show you the total preposterousness of your claim.
So you can either believe the evidence of your eyes or keep reading the internet as if it were the reference section of the library. (Which it is most assuredly not.) But your know nothing rhetoric does neither of us any good and makes you look like a moron.
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to TheCorinthian - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
OK. I admit I get most of my news from the internet. But all my research suggests that the US is trying to dominate the oil industry...what's left of it...in Iraq. The Hydrocarbon Law that Bush is so eager to push through the Iraqi Parliament is designed to make sure only US companies control the oilfields. In other words Iraq is not free to decide who gets the contracts or how the revenue is spent. If someone barges into your house and tells you how to manage your finances you call the cops right?
Try this...
http://www.handsoffiraqioil.org/
...yeah, yeah I know they look like a bunch of hippies, but there are some good links there too and I haven't got time to write a long essay.
Couple more...
http://priceofoil.org/thepriceofoil/war-ter ror/ira...
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/43045/
Now you tell me what you see on the ground that proves me wrong. Maybe check the facts with Dr. Hussein al-Shahristani if he'll see you.
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TheCorinthian
Pooh-Bah
Posts: 1900
Loc: Iraq (Sorry)
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Sorry. Again the internet is not the reference section of your library. And those sites look political simply via their names.
Entire nation states would like to prove what you claim, yet they can't do it. In fact they don't even try. So don't think you can via Google.
What I see is us paying close to $10/gal IN Iraq. I see no tankers going to the US without paying. I see no one but IA guarding and shipping the oil that is pumped. I see fuel in the US at record prices.
I DONT see you here. I don't see Hillary and Obama coming to power on the "We're stealing oil" platform. I don't see Russia or China denouncing us for the same thing.
When even your enemies don't charge you with something, chances are the claim is utter BS.
Edited by TheCorinthian on 11-02-08 02:40 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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lazyphil
Carpal Tunnel
Posts: 13089
Loc: Cromwell Country
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
exactly CW, and had you worked in nigeria (perhaps you did) and not iraq for 4 years and developed an afinity with nigerians you would possibly be raising the issue of oil theft from that country more often than you do. i see absolutely no difference in the two only that it seems nigerians are more docile to react to foreign occupation. i dont think it was the US gov intention to get bogged down in the mess that currently are in, they obviously expected them to roll over and give up. more power to the iraqis for saying fuck off!!
necessity hath no law.
Speech to parliament, Sept. 1654.
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TheCorinthian
Pooh-Bah
Posts: 1900
Loc: Iraq (Sorry)
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In response to lazyphil - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
The Iraqis did not role over and say fuck off. They rolled over and started killing each other a fast as possible. That is what stunned us.
That we did not expect it after the experience in Bosnia, though, is equally stunning.
(Good night for now all.)
Edited by TheCorinthian on 11-02-08 02:43 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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lazyphil
Carpal Tunnel
Posts: 13089
Loc: Cromwell Country
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In response to TheCorinthian - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
ok they told each other to fuck off then blamed the americans because they realised the sunnis and sheites dont love each other. lame isn't it.
keep safe out there.
necessity hath no law.
Speech to parliament, Sept. 1654.
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lazyphil
Carpal Tunnel
Posts: 13089
Loc: Cromwell Country
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In response to shygye - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
<<So the Nigerians getting rich on oil are not locals? Where did they come from, Ipswich?>>
i'm not sure where the cheif of BP lives?....surry?.....i guess a few nigerians on the top of the food chain do ok also, not many though.
necessity hath no law.
Speech to parliament, Sept. 1654.
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Old Hippie
I LOST a friend
Posts: 23969
Loc: SFO/OAK/BKK
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In response to ALHOLK - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
a lot of the natives seem to think they're just stealing oil...
Which is precisely what they are doing.
This is where you are wrong, we are not stealing it, we are paying for it, and using the money to help rebuild Iraq, better hospitals, more education, and an all over plan that any American would be happy to have. See, it is all in how you spin it.
| "....'cause when life looks like easy street, there is danger at your door..." -Hunter/Garcia |
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to TheCorinthian - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Sorry. Again the internet is not the reference section of your library. And those sites look political simply via their names.
Entire nation states would like to prove what you claim, yet they can't do it. In fact they don't even try. So don't think you can via Google.
What I see is us paying close to $10/gal IN Iraq. I see no tankers going to the US without paying. I see no one but IA guarding and shipping the oil that is pumped. I see fuel in the US at record prices.
I DONT see you here. I don't see Hillary and Obama coming to power on the "We're stealing oil" platform. I don't see Russia or China denouncing us for the same thing.
When even your enemies don't charge you with something, chances are the claim is utter BS.
The sites look political simply via their names? Is that a reason not to read them? You did know about the Hydrocarbon Law before I brought it up of course?
Sure people are paying record prices for gas but where is the money going? To pay for more security mostly would be my guess. Some people are getting rich of the war.
The mainstream media hardly ever mention the Hydrocarbon Law for some reason but there are plenty of people in the US and around the world who know what's going on. I have no idea why Hillary or Obama don't mention it. I guess they don't want to accuse Bushco of theft on a massive scale.
The Russians and Chinese also know exactly what's happening in Iraq. They've both been excluded from doing business there but complaining about it won't help them. The Russians have their own oil which they can use as a political weapon and the Chinese are doing business where they can...Iran and Sudan for instance...
It's all on the internet.
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Old Hippie
I LOST a friend
Posts: 23969
Loc: SFO/OAK/BKK
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Just to throw a little gas on the fire here..."stealing" as in going to war over resources is nothing new, it will happen again.
Now, my question is, would you feel better if China and or Russia went in and set up shop instead of the USA? Does it make a difference who pimps your oil to you? And NO little idealistic answers like "...I'd prefer it all be free and we all get along..." crap, I want an honest answer here, who do you trust more, or who do you want to have pulling your strings where oil is concerned, the USA, Russia and or China?
Additionally, I'll add, is China etc basically letting the USA do the bidding here, allowing our economy to collapse in the process, and they will then step in and gain an economic upper hand and then dominate us economically? discuss...
| "....'cause when life looks like easy street, there is danger at your door..." -Hunter/Garcia |
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to lazyphil - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
exactly CW, and had you worked in nigeria (perhaps you did) and not iraq for 4 years and developed an afinity with nigerians you would possibly be raising the issue of oil theft from that country more often than you do. i see absolutely no difference in the two only that it seems nigerians are more docile to react to foreign occupation. i dont think it was the US gov intention to get bogged down in the mess that currently are in, they obviously expected them to roll over and give up. more power to the iraqis for saying fuck off!!
I was in Nigeria briefly phil. Hated it. But I still don't see the colonization of West Africa as the same as a blatant invasion of a sovereign state. Sure it's about oil but there are no foreign troops in Nigeria.
Yes the invasion of Iraq was supposed to be a cakewalk. A few people did warn about the dangers of sectarian fighting but nobody listened.
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to Old Hippie - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Just to throw a little gas on the fire here..."stealing" as in going to war over resources is nothing new, it will happen again. Now, my question is, would you feel better if China and or Russia went in and set up shop instead of the USA? Does it make a difference who pimps your oil to you? And NO little idealistic answers like "...I'd prefer it all be free and we all get along..." crap, I want an honest answer here, who do you trust more, or who do you want to have pulling your strings where oil is concerned, the USA, Russia and or China?
I think that's kind of similar to the point phil has been making. Yes I do think there should be international norms of behaviour, sovereignty should be respected and nations should be able to choose what they do with their own resources.
As for the Iraqis I think they probably would be happy to deal with US oil companies on an equitable basis. Not at the point of a gun.
I'm not sure the Chinese want the US economy to collapse. How would that benefit them?
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Old Hippie
I LOST a friend
Posts: 23969
Loc: SFO/OAK/BKK
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Didn't quite answer the question
As for a resource like oil, should the rest of the world really let themselves be held at the mercy of the oil barrons? as in the oil producing nations? or should the world set some sort of criteria where in they will fork over this valuable resource at a resonable profit etc...? Discuss...
Myself, I say it is more less our own faults, because we allow greedy bastards dictate our energy policy, and thus prevent us from delvopeing safe nuclear power and other alternatives that would make us less dependent on the oil these mid east countries controll. Discuss...
| "....'cause when life looks like easy street, there is danger at your door..." -Hunter/Garcia |
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to Old Hippie - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Which question? If you didn't ramble on so bloody much and stop editing your posts before I reply you might get a definitive answer.
Now you throw out a few more questions. I think ideally resource countries should be allowed to control their own affairs but the way multi-national companies work it's getting hard to distinguish who owns what.
Maybe I'm just naive to think that empirical land grabs are a thing of the past but if people are going to invade each other at least they could be honest about it.
Next question. No rush....I will be away from the computer for a few hours.
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Flashermac
Curmudgeon
Posts: 30898
Loc: Transylvania
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
What is the meaning of life?
A happy childhood... is the worst possible preparation for life. - Kinky Friedman
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to Flashermac - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Life is....dunno. But I think I see the misunderstanding with Corinthian. It comes down to a definition of theft. He thinks because he is paying someone $10 a gallon for gas the oil hasn't been stolen. If a big landowner takes over a small neighbour's farm without asking that's theft. Maybe he let's the guy go on living there, maybe he even pays him a wage, maybe there's another legal word for it (any lawyers reading this crap?) but to me it's theft. Who owns Iraq now? I'd say the occupying force owns it. Not legally but if they refuse to leave they effectively own it. Taking over Iraq wasn't very clever. The oil was supposed to be cheap but the costs actually went up. So in a way we're all paying for the theft.
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Khun_Kong
Pooh-Bah
Posts: 3389
Loc: BKK-PTY-CHO I'm Lovin' I...
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In response to TheCorinthian - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
You know, I used to ask them about that- the locals that is. It was amazing the comments I received but no one ever actually accused us of that. Though a lot thought the oil was in the long term plan. Most were more worried about the Kurds and the Iranians getting the oil than us doing it.
Don't forgot- this war will end up costing Americans ZERO dollars, because Iraqui oil will be used to pay us back, mostly as a thank you for helping the Iraqui people. I know it's a bit difficult for them to express their true feelings at the moment, but I have no doubt that they will show their gratitude as soon as the oil starts flowing. Some of you would say I'm full of shit, but you would be the same unpatriotic, troop-hating people who claim GWB, Cheney, Rummy et al lied to or mislead us.
And those of you traitors who say we should bring these Marines and other boys back home- have you no respect at all for the job they're doing? How do you think they'd feel if they knew you wanted them to be back with their families? You make me sick.
| *** Caveat emptor: Latin for "Welcome to Thailand" *** |
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shygye
Carpal \'Tunnel
Posts: 10759
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Do you know how much petrol costs in the USA? Do you know how much petrol costs in Iraq? Now, who is plundering whom?
In the US about $3 a gallon. You'll have to tell me the current price in Iraqi. I guess you also need to factor in transportation and refinery costs and the additional costs because of all the security forces involved. Before the invasion crude was selling for around $20 a barrel. Now it's over $90 a barrel. The invasion was supposed to pay for itself...it would all be over in a few weeks...the Iraqis would throw flowers at the liberators...the insurgency is in its last throes...the surge is working...
The US buys refined oil products and gives it to Iraq. The US subsidizes cheap petrol prices in Iraq.
| Marriage by misadventure. |
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shygye
Carpal \'Tunnel
Posts: 10759
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Life is....dunno. But I think I see the misunderstanding with Corinthian. It comes down to a definition of theft. He thinks because he is paying someone $10 a gallon for gas the oil hasn't been stolen. If a big landowner takes over a small neighbour's farm without asking that's theft. Maybe he let's the guy go on living there, maybe he even pays him a wage, maybe there's another legal word for it (any lawyers reading this crap?) but to me it's theft. Who owns Iraq now? I'd say the occupying force owns it. Not legally but if they refuse to leave they effectively own it. Taking over Iraq wasn't very clever. The oil was supposed to be cheap but the costs actually went up. So in a way we're all paying for the theft.
It is not theft, because the oil is sold on the open market and that money flows into the Iraqi government plus additional US funding to keep it afloat.
| Marriage by misadventure. |
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to shygye - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Really? US taxpayers are paying $3 a gallon and subsidising Iraq? What a ridiculous situation.
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Old Hippie
I LOST a friend
Posts: 23969
Loc: SFO/OAK/BKK
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
"...Which question?..."
The first/main one, who would you rather have "steal/control" oil? The USA, China and or Russia? It is going to be grabbed and used/controlled/pimped by someone, so who of THESE 3 would you prefer?
As for the price of "petrol" in the USA...so what if it is cheaper here than in Europe? several reasons for that, and GAS is cheaper in many other countries. Regardless of the final "petrol" price, a barrel of oil is the same price on the world market, and this price is pretty much driven by greed and speculation, little more.
| "....'cause when life looks like easy street, there is danger at your door..." -Hunter/Garcia |
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to Old Hippie - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Do you mean military control? When you put it like that I'd have to say USA definitely tops my list for stealing/controlling oil. I haven't noticed China and Russia doing it militarily lately so I can't really judge. Russia's colonial days are long gone unless you count places like Chechnya and Azerbaijan...and their big mistake in Afghanistan which was more about politics than oil. China's last conquest would be Tibet I guess. No oil there. Yep USA for sure but the current leaders don't seem very good at it. Just keep driving the price up.
I think Europeans are probably overtaxed. It's the cost of social services.
Oil price is driven by greed, speculation and fear of supply cuts due to war etc. Didn't we just discuss that?
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Old Hippie
I LOST a friend
Posts: 23969
Loc: SFO/OAK/BKK
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Yes, we did discuss the price of oil, some refused to get the bottom line (not you as I recall).
Point is, someone's big corporations are going to pimp the oil, China didn't use troops (GWB may have beat them to it?) nor has Russia (same reason?) but, they are a major influence in the middle east, with their growing demand.
Sooner or later, someone (else?) is going to try and control it all, be it with large corporations and corruption, or with a military force. Either way, regardless of who, WE will all be pimped on the price. Of the big 3 (right now) I'd say you/we are better off with the USA's hand up our ass than the other 2.
As for the price of gas/petrol, yes, taxes are the final flaw of the high prices in many countries, as well as transport costs, and refining costs.
| "....'cause when life looks like easy street, there is danger at your door..." -Hunter/Garcia |
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lazyphil
Carpal Tunnel
Posts: 13089
Loc: Cromwell Country
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In response to Old Hippie - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
as i've/we've said before. lets go all out for nuke power. heat/cool homes, electric driven cars etc etc, nuke powered cargo ships etc. its the only long term way pure and simple. green options can be incorperated too. its going to be a challenge but mankind will always have the will. oh and wars, just be over something else thats all 
necessity hath no law.
Speech to parliament, Sept. 1654.
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to Old Hippie - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
I remember the oil price thread but not what I said. Something really perceptive I expect. Somebody made a good point about production costs increasing I remember. Demand from China too of course. Combination of factors driving the price most likely but it's a fact that oil has gone from around $20 a barrel to almost $100 a barrel since the Iraq invasion and the Iran problem.
I don't see the Russians as a threat...except perhaps in the Arctic and the Chinese are much too shrewd to waste money on military adventures. There was a potential flashpoint in the Spratleys but we don't hear much about that anymore. Sudan could get ugly if companies start squabbling over concessions but the Chinese are staying out of the Darfur trouble.
I agree phil....the wars of the future will be over resources. Water, food....the world is getting crowded.
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shygye
Carpal \'Tunnel
Posts: 10759
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
China is in Burma and Sudan.
| Marriage by misadventure. |
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to shygye - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
China is in Burma and Sudan.
Right. But I wouldn't call it a military invasion. They don't really need to go that far.
Here's a good read...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&...
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chocolat steve
old hand
Posts: 9386
Loc: Los Angeles / Pattaya
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
I've posted this before but the G8 nations should get together and decide to base their collective economies on a non oil energy source or at the very least, hybrid cars that require very little oil.
Whatever the biggest economies decide the rest of the world will have to follow. They have no choice but to follow suit.
A concerted effort with timetables for achievement.
There will be a bit of a transition pain economically and socially like prior changes. The world has gone from an economy based on sail to steam engine, to trains, to cars, to airplanes.
And it created new jobs and related industries with each transition. The same will happen.
This change is necessary from an economic and geo-political point of view. When given an economic incentive, man can be very inventive. I have no doubt there will be vast strides made in modes of transport based on whatevery they decide (hybrid, fuel cell, or whatever). Its happened with every change.
It also makes the middle east politically and economically (and militarily) unimportant. The west (and America in particular) wouldn't have much reason to be involved in the region.
It also helps the air and environment so the environmentalists will all be in favor of it.
It takes big oil out of politics and out of our lives.
Eliminates OPEC as a global force. Cuts the economic knees of Iran and Saudi Arabia (and Iraq unfortunatlely) and the region will have to come up other ways to make money and they will have to play nice when they lose those euros and dollars.
| "...you ever see me with a white woman, I'm just holding her till the police come..." - Redd Foxx |
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to chocolat steve - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
It's not just transportation CS....it's power generation, plastics, chemicals, fertilizer all kinds of demand for hydrocarbons.
This is interesting...seems the Russians are doing business in Iraq again ....
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b0452282-d980 -11dc-bd4d-...
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chocolat steve
old hand
Posts: 9386
Loc: Los Angeles / Pattaya
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
For the amount oil needed for non transportation use, it won't require the billions spent in the middle east. I'm not saying to do away with oil totally. Just the industries like transportation that requires us to be in the middle east. Basically reduce the reliance to the point where the middle east isn't needed any longer. We still use trains even though in the late 1800s the largest stocks in the U.S. stock market were all rail stocks.
Also, never underestimate the ingenuity of man. Once we move in that direction we'll see vast innovations. Its always happened.
| "...you ever see me with a white woman, I'm just holding her till the police come..." - Redd Foxx |
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to chocolat steve - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
I think it will be a question of economics eventually. As long as we can afford to drive our own cars we will.
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chocolat steve
old hand
Posts: 9386
Loc: Los Angeles / Pattaya
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
What I would propose is to use a carrot instead of a stick to change society. Lets use fuel cells as an example as one alternative (could be hybrids or whatever).
In the states, the Federal and State governments would have a timetable to convert all government vehicles to fuel cell. This would create an instant market for the car companies to come up with a viable option. Their R&D departments would work hard to compete to see who gets this multi billion dollar contract for the federal and state governments.
Offer tax abatements or amortization write offs to companies that carry large fleets of cars (Rental car companies, UPS, Fed Ex, Trucking companies).
Offer inviduals the same. They can buy 'regular' cars but if they buy a fuel cell car they can amortize the cost and write it off on their taxes over a certain period of time, say 3 years or 5 years.
Offer any business that will house a re-fueling kiosk, a mortarium on sales taxes or a very reduced salex tax. The oil company controlled gas stations will be the slowest but if they will see the financial benefit to having at least one refueling kiosk when they see the cost of installation can be amortized as a write off as well as the profits not taxed at nearly the same rate as oil.
Have areas of the parking lots of state and federal buildings have refueling kiosks.
Give people an economic incentive and they'll change.
Its not the first time the government has created an industry through economic incentives.
A whole industry in the manufacturing, repair and sales of these new cars will create a whole new set of jobs.
About a 1/5 of the population was directly or indirectly tied to the rail industry in the late 1800s. What happened to all those jobs when cars came into being? Those jobs shifted to other industries. The same will happen again.
| "...you ever see me with a white woman, I'm just holding her till the police come..." - Redd Foxx |
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to chocolat steve - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
People will always want and need to travel. But there are also plenty of reasons why given a choice people choose large cars. It's not hard to see why SUVs are so popular. I guess the key is the economic incentive part. Getting the government to lead the way makes sense. Somebody should put you in charge of the Department of Transportation CS.
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rogueyam
stranger
Posts: 2739
Loc: San Francisco, USA
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
If the gang will forgive an on-topic post to this thread, then I am happy to provide my first-hand report from the front, the People's Republic of Berkeley. It was a gorgeous day, perfectly clear and just slightly cool, and the demonstration lasted from before dawn until well into the evening. The meeting is on now, and here's the streaming video:
http://berkeley.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?publi...
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lazyphil
Carpal Tunnel
Posts: 13089
Loc: Cromwell Country
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
The Volvo and BMW new wave of SUV's are handsome motors. i was recently in the united states and was suprised just how small cars americans are now driving compared to my first time in the country in 92. many many compact japanese cars, whlst here the SUV is becoming king!
necessity hath no law.
Speech to parliament, Sept. 1654.
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rogueyam
stranger
Posts: 2739
Loc: San Francisco, USA
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In response to rogueyam - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Ok, there were loads of patriots in Berzerkeley today, and of course plenty of lefties too. The patriots gathered in the park across from City Hall and played music, sang songs, shared food and cameraderie and denounced the Berkeley City Council actions. The lefties gathered on the lawn of City Hall and I paid no attention to them. Some lefties came over to harrass us but they were pretty boring. I helped prevent a few of them from stealing the donation box put out by the rally organizers. And there were some incidents of fairly minor assault by various especially deranged pinkos. The best moment for me was when a young hippie woman on a bicycle rode in front of the patriots tauntingly waving a small American flag she had set on fire. This guy standing right next to me (of a type familiar to any American; a sixty-something year old Vietnam-era veteran biker dude, at once portly but still cut, wearing a black leather vest covered in service patches, etc.) sees the burning flag and instantly darts out into the street, takes the woman down to the ground off of the bike, and snatches the flag away from her. As he stood up a half dozen or so young hippies came running up to him. He stood there looking right at them as he calmly rolled up the flag, extinguishing it, and then he turned and walked slowly back over to rejoin us in the park. The hippies waited until he was well away from them before they started shouting threats at him but he didn't even bother looking back. All the other gnarly veteran biker dudes (there were a couple dozen or so) then gathered around him and offered congratulations. It was a thing of beauty!
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Flashermac
Curmudgeon
Posts: 30898
Loc: Transylvania
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In response to rogueyam - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Power to the people!
A happy childhood... is the worst possible preparation for life. - Kinky Friedman
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rogueyam
stranger
Posts: 2739
Loc: San Francisco, USA
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In response to rogueyam - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Here is a photo slideshow from today:
http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLandingSignin.jsp...
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chuckwoww
neotroll
Posts: 8764
Loc: Here.
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In response to lazyphil - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
First time I went to the States people were still driving huge cars with tail-fins and V8 engines that got about 6 miles to the gallon. Beautiful things you only see at car clubs now. I thought they were great. I had a Grand Prix Monaco. Gas was really cheap too. I'm not sure what the average gas mileage is for SUVs but engines have got more efficient. I still can't see people choosing smaller cars unless they absolutely have to.
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chocolat steve
old hand
Posts: 9386
Loc: Los Angeles / Pattaya
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In response to chuckwoww - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
They may not have to choose. Technology could advance where one could drive a large vehicle and not use up much energy. Replacing metal with fiberglass and lighter material, as well as other things have increased overall gas mileage of cars and trucks. Given an incentive, I think technology will solve it.
When gas prices hit hard in '73, people drove smaller, Japanese cars instead of large American ones because there was an economic incentive.
| "...you ever see me with a white woman, I'm just holding her till the police come..." - Redd Foxx |
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rogueyam
stranger
Posts: 2739
Loc: San Francisco, USA
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In response to chocolat steve - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
The economic incentive for fuel efficient vehicles seems to me to be less than some people suppose. Even at US $3.00/gal. compared to less than $1/gal. back in the early 1980's. gas is still quite cheap compared to the total cost of owning a vehicle. Once you pay $25K for the hoopty, $1200/year or more for insurance, parking, maintenance, tolls, etc. those last few bucks at the gas pump don't mean so much to a lot of drivers. Why not go ahead and have a powerful engine, 4WD, and a robust safety cage?
Again, back ON topic, here is the famous zombie's page of photos on the Berkeley protest. The page is not completed yet. There eventually will be more photos posted along with zombie's patented droll commentary. Folks who like this sort of thing can go to zombie's homepage and scroll down the list of Bay Area political events that have been "zombified". Good stuff:
http://www.zombietime.com/berkeley_marines_2-12 -20...
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chocolat steve
old hand
Posts: 9386
Loc: Los Angeles / Pattaya
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In response to rogueyam - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Everyone in America doesn't drive SUVs, there will always be people who have the desire and money to buy SUVs, although the spike in oil prices a few years ago has affected the demand:
Sales figures for large SUVs:
April 2004: 71,040
April 2005: 59,914
April 2006: 47,363
April 2007: 59,297
Source: Edmunds.com
Under the plan, there are some that will still buy whatever but over time it will peter out. There are still some who still use VHS and not DVDs.
| "...you ever see me with a white woman, I'm just holding her till the police come..." - Redd Foxx |
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Old Hippie
I LOST a friend
Posts: 23969
Loc: SFO/OAK/BKK
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In response to chocolat steve - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
The declining sales/demand could also be the fact that the big SUVs cost a heap compared to other vehicles...and trends as well...so it could be more the economy than fuel prices...
| "....'cause when life looks like easy street, there is danger at your door..." -Hunter/Garcia |
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shygye
Carpal \'Tunnel
Posts: 10759
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In response to Old Hippie - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
One "feels" the price of gas more, since you pay for gas every week. You don't by a vehicle every week, except for Britney. 
| Marriage by misadventure. |
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chocolat steve
old hand
Posts: 9386
Loc: Los Angeles / Pattaya
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In response to shygye - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
SUV sales can stay the same and it wouldn't matter. If most people are buying the fuel cell cars, the emissions and oil required for those holdouts buying SUVS is inconsequential like people with coal heaters. America has more than enough oil for those SUVs and then some. The objective isn't to elimiate oil (although that would be nice) but reduce it where its no longer needed for the economy AND the Middle East is no longer needed.
| "...you ever see me with a white woman, I'm just holding her till the police come..." - Redd Foxx |
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rogueyam
stranger
Posts: 2739
Loc: San Francisco, USA
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In response to rogueyam - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Folks, I gotta say, zombie has outdone herself with the full report from the Berkeley protest. If you have any interest in what passes for direct political action in the famous "home of the Free Speech Movement" then this is your one-stop shop. I promise you that you will be underwhelmed, yet perhaps a tad amused as well. It's not much, but "this is what (decadent, bourgeoise) democracy looks like!"
http://www.zombietime.com/berkeley_marines_2-12 -20...
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khun_khon_neua
addict
Posts: 403
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In response to rogueyam - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Great thread...
Not often you get two fully diverse topics for the price of one.
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TheCorinthian
Pooh-Bah
Posts: 1900
Loc: Iraq (Sorry)
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In response to rogueyam - Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines
Folks, I gotta say, zombie has outdone herself with the full report from the Berkeley protest. If you have any interest in what passes for direct political action in the famous "home of the Free Speech Movement" then this is your one-stop shop. I promise you that you will be underwhelmed, yet perhaps a tad amused as well. It's not much, but "this is what (decadent, bourgeoise) democracy looks like!"
http://www.zombietime.com/berkeley_marines_2-12 -20...
Wow, that is impressive!
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